TERRY GROSS, HOST:

That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. This week, we’re celebrating hip-hop’s fiftieth anniversary. We’re that includes interviews from our archive with performers who maintain a big place in that historical past. Our first interview right this moment is with Ice-T. He was one of many early gangster rappers and was each standard and controversial. In 1987, he was signed to Sire Information and launched his debut album, “Rhyme Pays,” which received gold. His follow-up, “Energy,” went platinum. In 1992, his heavy steel band, Physique Depend, launched their self-titled album, which included the music “Cop Killer.” The music was so controversial, it was withdrawn from the market, and the album was rereleased with out that monitor.

As an actor, the paradox of Ice-T’s profession is clear. He performed a police detective in his first main performing position within the 1991 movie “New Jack Metropolis.” He is in all probability greatest identified now for his position as a police detective, showing in over 400 episodes of “Legislation & Order: SVU.” I spoke with Ice-T in 1994 after the publication of his e book, “The Ice Opinion.” Let’s begin with an autobiographical rap from his 1993 album, “Dwelling Invasion.” That is “That is How I am Livin’.”

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THAT’S HOW I’M LIVIN'”)

ICE-T: (Rapping) I used to be born in New Jersey. I stated it earlier than, however I suppose no person heard me. My mom died younger. No sisters or brothers, I used to be the one son. Once I was 12, my pops died, too. What’s a brother speculated to do? They despatched me out west to stay with my aunt. I suppose they thought that was the very best. However there was no love there. However rising with no mothers, I suppose I used to be ready to stay in a vacuum – the bed room, the kitchen, the corridor, the toilet. I did not go away dwelling a lot. I did not like LA, did not haven’t any associates to belief. Bought bussed to a faculty. Blacks and whites, I suppose [expletive] was cool. About highschool, I modified. Did not need to bust, did not need to…

(SOUNDBITE OF ARVCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: Ice-T, welcome to FRESH AIR. You had been actually one of many first gangster rappers. Did you relate to social gathering rap when rap was beginning?

ICE-T: Yeah. Once I first obtained off into rap, I attempted to rap within the social gathering rap-type fashion as a result of I used to be beneath the impression that is what rappers did. However it was type of like I used to be faking it as a result of I had by no means actually rapped in events and issues like that. I used to be attempting to rap like Sugarhill Gang. After which I simply began rapping in regards to the life I used to be residing. And that is how, you recognize – they name it gangster rap, however I known as it reality-based rap, you recognize? And that is how that type of music obtained began.

GROSS: Now, how did you begin doing that? What was the turning level the place you determined you were not going to attempt to faux it and do the social gathering raps, that you just had been going to speak in regards to the life you knew?

ICE-T: Effectively, I made – my first report ever I made was a report known as “Coldest Rap,” and it was on a report known as “Chilly Wind.” One facet was known as “Chilly Wind-Insanity,” and that was on an impartial label. And it was very actuality primarily based. However it, you recognize, was so early in rap – this was, like, 1982 – and everyone else was rapping, you recognize, Run-D.M.C. fashion, LL Cool J and stuff. So I simply was going together with the development, you recognize, the way in which they go. However then after some time, my associates had been like, you recognize, Ice, man, speak about what we do, man. Discuss how we stay. And I did this music known as “6 ‘N The Mornin’.” It was a B-side. I actually did not assume that that was what folks needed to listen to, however the B-side turned out to be the most important report and ended up being my identification, actually.

GROSS: Might you do a few traces from that?

ICE-T: What, “6 ‘N The Mornin’?”

GROSS: Oh, perhaps not, huh?

ICE-T: Yeah, I might do it. …

GROSS: OK.

ICE-T: …What I imply? It went, (rapping) 6 within the morning, police at my door, contemporary Adidas squeaked throughout the toilet flooring. Out the again window, I made my escape. Did not even get an opportunity to seize my old-fashioned tape. Mad with no music however blissful ‘trigger free, and the streets to a participant is the place to be. Bought a knot in my pocket sporting at the very least a grand. Gold on my neck, my pistol is shut at hand. I am a self-made monster. Town streets remotely managed by onerous hip-hop beats, however simply residing within the metropolis is a severe activity. Did not know what the cops needed, did not have time to ask.

GROSS: Now, what was the very first time you took a microphone?

ICE-T: It was – I used to be within the Military, and the report known as “Rapper’s Delight” had got here out, and that was the primary time I had ever actually heard it executed to music. And on the B-side of it, it was an instrumental. So right here I’m attempting to say my rhymes over this instrumental. They usually did not actually match ‘trigger they weren’t written that manner, you recognize? However that was my first try. And I got here dwelling making an attempt to do what, you recognize, they name rapping now.

GROSS: Do you bear in mind something you stated that very first time?

ICE-T: Effectively, I attempted to say the road rhymes that I had been saying on the streets, you recognize, strolling by town in the course of my – in the course of the evening. I used to sing, like, gang rhymes. I used to say rhymes that needed to do with residing within the streets, you recognize? They usually simply did not match, you recognize? However I began – then I began writing, like, social gathering rhymes, like (rapping) my title is Ice-T, I am right here – I am your DJ tonight. I am right here to rock y’all onerous. I’mma rock you proper. I’mma transfer you in. I’mma transfer you out – that type of stuff. However that wasn’t actually what I used to be about, so I obtained again to the drama.

GROSS: Yeah. I imply, you’ve got even criticized some hardcore rappers who abandon hardcore and do extra dance music. What’s improper with dance music?

ICE-T: No, nothing’s improper with it. However, I imply, hardcore rap, to me, is – the distinction between pop and hardcore is with hardcore, you are saying precisely what’s in your thoughts. You are being true to your emotions. Now, whether or not that pushes any person the improper manner, that is simply what being actual is about. However there’s lots of people on the market that need to get on the radio. So the radio dictates to you what you must say. You must be politically right, so to talk. And once I see guys that at one time had been very aggressive about sure issues after which I see them get softer to attempt to go onto the radio, I simply – you recognize, to me, that is weak, you recognize? However I by no means actually pull names. I simply say it to them ‘trigger it type of breaks my coronary heart once I see any person who was once actual dancing round on the video wanting all silly.

GROSS: Effectively…

ICE-T: Now, if that is what you do – do not get me improper. If that – in case you are a pop rapper, I’ve no drawback with that. , I really like MC Hammer. I really like Contemporary Prince, and I really like Child ‘n Play. That is them. However I am speaking about – it is like tomorrow in the event you went out and also you noticed certainly one of my movies, and rapidly, I obtained on some – like, a yellow raincoat and I am dancing round and – you recognize, you would be like, what are you doing, Ice? That is what I am speaking about.

GROSS: Once you began making information, although, did you ever fear that each one the standard avenues that folks hear information could be closed to you? It wasn’t going to be within the jukeboxes or on the radio due to four-letter phrases?

ICE-T: I actually did not care, as a result of to me, I did it to have enjoyable. It was enjoyable. It isn’t a – it turned, then, to being an occupation. However you bought to recollect, once I began rapping, no person was making any cash at it. There was Run-D.M.C. It was – it wasn’t like – now children hearken to it and say, oh, wow, I can receives a commission. However me, I did it for enjoyable. And that was my solely, like, prerequisite so far as doing music – and nonetheless is in leisure. It is like, if I can not have enjoyable, I can not do it. I imply, that is one of many most important causes I pulled off Warner Brothers, was as a result of I obtained to have the ability to do it my manner. If I can not have enjoyable, then why would I write a e book or make a – I obtained to do it my manner. That is what it is about.

GROSS: You grew up in New York, or at the very least while you had been very younger, you had been in…

ICE-T: Yeah, New Jersey.

GROSS: …New York, and – New Jersey.

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: Thanks. And your dad and mom died while you had been younger. Each of your dad and mom had been useless, I believe, by the point you had been 12. Can I ask how they died?

ICE-T: My mom died from a coronary heart assault, and my father simply died. I do not know. I simply was known as from faculty someday, they usually’re like, your pops is useless. And I am like, oh. After which, you recognize, I by no means actually obtained into his precise reason behind demise. He wasn’t killed or something, you recognize? He was – on the time, he had – I do know he had gone by a whole lot of ache, like, arthritis and stuff like that. They usually despatched me – from there, they advised me, OK, effectively, you are going to come to LA for the summer season.

GROSS: Who’s they? Who advised you?

ICE-T: His sister, my aunt. After which they had been – then the following – earlier than – effectively, I obtained there in, like, one week. Then rapidly, all my garments popped up on the market in containers. So I type of, like, obtained shipped to California.

GROSS: In order that’s the way you ended up in LA?

ICE-T: Yeah, residing with my father’s youthful sister, who wasn’t actually a pleasant lady. She was type of like a girl who was – stated I am taking good care of you ‘trigger I obtained to. Shut up, sit down, all that, you recognize? So a whole lot of children get moved round like that.

GROSS: In your e book, you stated that she was a spiritual lady.

ICE-T: No, she wasn’t a spiritual lady. She was a drunk. She was a social employee, a girl who would go round and analyze whether or not children ought to keep in foster houses and stuff. And he or she was a horrible particular person. She was like an previous drunk. She wasn’t no person certified to do something like that, you recognize? I imply, she was – it was tough on me. However I left there once I was, like, 17 years previous as a result of, you recognize, it is not – that is not the type of atmosphere you are speculated to be raised in the place any person’s like, I am taking good care of you ‘trigger I obtained to and all that type of stuff. , the phrase love and caring and all that’s, you recognize, not even in the home.

GROSS: So the place did you go at 17?

ICE-T: I obtained my very own place. I took slightly cash I used to be getting for Social Safety. I used to be receiving Social Safety verify – $250 a month. And I purchased – I obtained an condominium which was $100 a month. I took one other $100 and put it into the meals and stuff I had to purchase. And I had 50 bucks additional. And I used to be nonetheless in highschool.

GROSS: Now, what highschool had been you going to?

ICE-T: Crenshaw.

GROSS: This was in South Central?

ICE-T: Yeah, useless – the middle of – that is the useless heart of Los Angeles, Crenshaw Excessive College.

GROSS: It should have been good to have your individual condominium. I imply, while you’re in highschool, any person’s obtained their very own condominium, that is…

ICE-T: Makes you the person.

GROSS: Yeah (laughter).

ICE-T: Effectively, that is – that did occur. , all my associates and stuff I obtained, you recognize, I had the pad. And it turned me, like, into a frontrunner, you recognize? So by simply being slightly bit in entrance of everyone else, I’ve associates all the time over. They might spend the evening. It was humorous. Lots of people would run away for, like, two days. I am operating away. I am residing with you. , you may’t run away. Then their mom would come to my home. The place’s Nate, you recognize? Get out. He is hiding within the closet. And, you recognize, it was attention-grabbing. But in addition what ended up occurring, I ended up having a teenage being pregnant, too.

GROSS: A girlfriend.

ICE-T: Yeah, my girlfriend. She was within the tenth grade, however, you recognize, I am Mr. Man About City, obtained my very own condominium. Whoop, now I obtained a child. So, you recognize…

GROSS: So what’d you do?

ICE-T: …A bit an excessive amount of freedom. Huh? Oh, at that time, I made a decision – I attempted to remain down with the child. However I – you recognize, that is when rapidly, slightly – a little bit of accountability tried to hit me, and that is once I joined the navy.

GROSS: However that meant getting away from the child, proper?

ICE-T: Probably not. It was only a job. It was a manner of doing one thing. , at that time, I used to be on the streets. I used to be attempting to go to technical faculty. However, you recognize, crime was knocking there at my door like, hey, man, you recognize, you solely obtained 50 additional bucks. In the event you steal this automotive radio, you bought 300 additional bucks. So what are you going to do? , you may’t get a job at this level, you recognize? So it was a cross. And I simply stated, yeah, I’ll attempt to go within the Military. And I went within the Military.

GROSS: So are you continue to in contact with the lady who had the child and with the child?

ICE-T: Oh, yeah, positively. Yeah, my daughter lives with me now.

GROSS: Oh, she does?

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: Oh.

ICE-T: In order that’s cool and stuff, you recognize? However once I got here out of the Military, all my associates who had been small-time, little, you recognize, petty crooks now had been larger crooks, you recognize? And that is how I obtained off concerned in all of the completely different, you recognize, crimes, making an attempt to, you recognize, recover from.

GROSS: So what sort of crimes had been they doing?

ICE-T: Every thing. , you title it, we did it, you recognize? However mainly, something – the whole lot that you could possibly do with out really bringing bodily hurt to any person. I did not dangle round with a bunch of violent guys that had been into, you recognize, hurting folks and kidnapping. However they’d rob a retailer or burglarize one thing or steal one thing. And a few of them offered medication and issues like that. However, you recognize, I by no means was, like, usually to only, you recognize, the mugging sort of a factor.

GROSS: In your e book “The Ice Opinion,” you wrote that you just needed to be a pimp.

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: Why did you need to be a pimp?

ICE-T: I admired pimps as a result of once I was rising up, the one folks that had the whole lot round me had been the pimps and the drug sellers. And I actually wasn’t into medication ‘trigger I do not do medication and even drink. However I all the time preferred women. So I used to be like, hey, that is the man I need to be. And I simply admired the life-style. And I obtained concerned in it for a minute, you recognize, tried it out, however I did not actually prefer it – you recognize? – ‘trigger it is a dangerous sort of a sport. , folks find yourself harm. However now I discovered that there is solely two jobs on this planet – there’s pimps and hoes. So it is the individuals who work for or the individuals who make you’re employed. In order that’s why, I suppose, that is the oldest career, as a result of it is – both you are a pimp otherwise you’re a ho. So I figured it out now. So I do know what is going on on with it. So like I stated, once I was on Warner Brothers, I used to be a ho. They had been the pimp. They had been – they labored me until I used to be burnt out, busted or useless. Now I am attempting to pimp myself, you recognize?

GROSS: (Laughter) Is that the way you see it?

ICE-T: Yeah. Effectively, the whole lot could be damaged down. Every thing you see on the road, it is like – it is just one sport, proper? You’ve capitalism and you’ve got completely different variations of it. Drug dealing is capitalism. It is all the identical. It is what the legislation say is authorized and who will get harm within the meantime. , the oil corporations promote stuff. They pollute the water, however they will mess around with it. So I attempt to train children, you recognize, all these little abilities you are studying on the streets, whether or not they’re damaging or not, in the event you – with slightly altering and modifying, you may remodel proper off into large enterprise. And particularly in the event you’re a avenue criminal. The very best place to go proper now’s politics as a result of that is the place – that is, like, you’ve got – you may discover all your folks there.

GROSS: We’re listening to my 1994 interview with Ice-T. We’ll hear extra of our dialog after a break. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ICE-T SONG, “O.G. ORIGINAL GANGSTER”)

GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my 1994 interview with rapper and actor Ice-T. On this a part of the interview, we talked in regards to the language he used to explain ladies in a few of his recordings and why many ladies discovered that language offensive.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: A lot rap to me appears to be about getting respect, proper?

ICE-T: Proper.

GROSS: Then I can not perceive why so many rappers deal with ladies with so little respect once they’re so demanding of respect for themselves.

ICE-T: True. The phrase b**** and stuff is simply – it is actually avenue dialogue, phrases which can be used and actually do not maintain a whole lot of energy, you recognize? I imply, that is simply the underside line. It does not actually maintain a whole lot of energy.

GROSS: However you recognize that if a girl needs to name herself one thing, that is one factor. If a person calls a girl a b****, that is one thing completely different. And as a pal and colleague says, these are combating phrases.

ICE-T: Effectively, that is cool. However perhaps we’re saying, let’s combat. It isn’t – I may very well be a b****, you recognize? However within the ghetto, we throw these phrases round. In the event you sat round some Black children within the hood, that is how we speak – man, my b**** was da, da (ph) they usually be – the women be like, oh, he thought he had this and da, da, da, da. And we simply throw it round. What it’s – see, rap music is Black music that is being despatched forwards and backwards to us within the ghetto. White America picked up the telephone and listened to it and stated, oh, how can they speak like this? That is simply how we speak. Put the telephone down.

GROSS: However the phrase appears consultant of different attitudes too. Like in your newest album, “Dwelling Invasion,” on the monitor “99 Issues”…

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: …One of many line is – I can not say the phrase, but it surely’s a 4 letter phrase for intercourse, proper? So it is, I clean all of them and go away them on the curb. I imply, come on. I imply, you recognize, that is actually…

ICE-T: However hearken to Salt-N-Pepa’s new report. They’re saying the identical factor about males. It is ghetto Black feminine sparring. We repeatedly do that, and that is simply our factor, and we have executed it. I imply, my father used to say, Ice, I might take my factor and bounce it off 4 parking meters and undergo that window and do this man’s mama. That is how we speak. It is – and, see, white America simply will not perceive it. However I am simply going to need to say it is a Black factor. And we do it – hearken to Eddie Murphy; hearken to Rudy Ray Moore; hearken to Richard Pryor; hearken to our previous historical past of how it’s. Solely factor rap has executed is put it to music and allow you to see it. And white America don’t love how we’re and stuff.

GROSS: Effectively, I am white.

ICE-T: I perceive it, however…

GROSS: However, I imply, white folks have this lengthy historical past of sexism, however that does not make it, like, a factor our folks do, so subsequently it is cool. I imply, it is unhealthy.

ICE-T: However you do not see Black folks criticizing rock ‘n’ roll.

GROSS: Effectively, a whole lot of white ladies criticize rock ‘n’ roll.

ICE-T: Effectively, it is so that you can do. You bought to know that if a girl makes a report, she’s going to make it from a girl’s perspective.

GROSS: , there’s a whole lot of Black ladies criticizing rap now, although.

ICE-T: There’s a whole lot of what – Black ladies making rap that I believe is derogatory towards males.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

ICE-T: Touche.

GROSS: I nonetheless do not buy it.

ICE-T: I am pondering, you recognize, let’s simply relax and benefit from the experience. It isn’t that severe. There’s homeless folks on the market.

GROSS: Do you assume that any of the gangster rap has hardened right into a caricature of itself?

ICE-T: Yeah. A whole lot of it is corny. A whole lot of it is actual faux. I imply, any time I hearken to a gangster rapper and he is speaking about how powerful he’s and all this jail stuff and all that and the way many individuals, you recognize, he killed, and it is, you recognize – it is phony and pretend. , any time it is glamorized to that time, I can let you know by no means been by it. Now, some persons are artists at it. It is like, Scarface does it to the purpose the place it is, like, he is just like the Sam Peckinpah of rap.

GROSS: (Laughter).

ICE-T: He writes it in such graphic particulars that it is like watching a characteristic movie, you recognize? And I recognize it. However then there’s some children I can simply inform that do not know what they’re speaking about.

GROSS: You stated you do not thoughts children emulating the garments. I believe, in actual fact, you are advertising and marketing your individual line known as O.G.G., Unique Gangsta Gear.

ICE-T: Unique Gangsta Gear. And the one cause we name it Unique Gangsta Gear is as a result of that is what folks now name me ‘trigger I had an album known as O.G. That is, like, my facet title, Ice-T, the O.G., proper? So as a substitute of calling it Ice-T Gear, we known as it O.G.G. We thought it was type of a play on (inaudible) phrases. why we did it? As a result of I am uninterested in the tradition simply being ripped off, you recognize? I imply, I have been to all these completely different clothes producers and hip-hop garments and all that, however not one of the Black children that obtained the types kicking are making a dime off of this, you recognize? We’re not getting nothing out of it. We do not personal no report labels. We do not personal nothing. So it is a – we do not personal something. So obtained to maintain…

GROSS: (Laughter).

ICE-T: …My English right as usually as attainable. However it’s like – I used to be like, look, none of those folks need to sponsor me. They’re petrified of me and all this. Let me make my very own garments. It is solely proper if I stroll on TV and I create a method, why I ain’t get a royalty off of it, you recognize? After which what occurred is the white tradition says, you should not need to get any cash off of something you do. Allow us to get all the cash off of it. That is silly.

GROSS: Let me ask you. You are a father now. Effectively, you are a father for at the very least a second time in any case.

ICE-T: Yeah.

GROSS: Yeah. So how does being a father have an effect on you as a performer and a author? Any affect on that?

ICE-T: Probably not, ‘trigger my daughter – she’s been round, and so she is aware of all in regards to the nasty lyrics. She loves them. She’s the good child on the faculty. , her little girlfriends going, your daddy be writing them nasty information…

GROSS: (Laughter).

ICE-T: …? , she’s cool with it. She grew up round a home stuffed with cursing and stuff. She do not curse in entrance of me – simply the way in which I grew up. My father cursed. I simply did not curse in entrance of him, you recognize? However, you recognize, he cursed me out each day. However I by no means curse round him, you recognize? After which my little boy – I imply, she’s slightly revolutionary. She’s clever. Individuals all the time say, effectively, Ice-T, you guys are very aggressive and revolutionary. I am like, yeah, however simply wait on my children and wait on their children, you recognize? So I am priming them up for the battle and hopefully – you recognize, his title is Ice. His title is Ice. So he is simply arising – chip off the previous block, I suppose. I do not know. , he is going to have the ability to sit round the home and hearken to me run this rhetoric off for 18 years. So who is aware of what he’ll be? Hopefully he’ll be a lawyer – prison lawyer to maintain me out of jail or one thing.

GROSS: (Laughter) I need to thank you a large number for speaking with us.

ICE-T: Thanks.

GROSS: My interview with Ice-T was recorded in 1994. Developing, we’ll hear my 1999 interview with rapper, singer and actor Queen Latifah. I am Terry Gross, and that is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “NEW JACK HUSTLER (NINO’S THEME)”)

ICE-T: (Rapping) Right here I come, so that you higher break north. As I stride, my gold chains glide forwards and backwards. I care nothing about you, and that is evident. All I really like’s my dope and useless presidents. Sound loopy? Effectively, it is not. The ends justifies the means. That is the system. I discovered that at school. Then I dropped out, hit the streets, checked a grip, and now I obtained clout. I had nothing, and I needed it. You had the whole lot, and also you flaunted it. Turned the needy into the grasping. With cocaine, my success got here speedy. There will be one other one after me, a hustler.

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